On Saturday, June 2, 2007, the Evangelical Debate Society hosted a Bible Conference and debate at Oasis Community Church in Moreno Valley, California.  JCSM was thankful to be invited and I was an honored guest.

These are my notes from the conference and the debate.  I hope they are as edifying to you as they are to me!

Gene Cook, Jr. - Pre-Suppositional Apologetics

Gabe Colangelo - The Christian Worldview

Mike Sarkissian - Jehovah's Witnesses

Steve Wilson - The Roman Catholic Church

Joel Hughes - Secular Humanism

Ed Enochs - Mormonism

Emilio Ramos – Islam

Debate – Eternal Punishment

Gene Cook, Jr.

An Introduction to Pre-Suppositional Apologetics 

Classical apologetics stresses rational arguments for the existence of God.  It’s similar to evidential apologetics and appeals to human reason and evidence.  Norman Geisler, J.P. Moreland, and Greg Koukl use this method. 

Evidential apologetics uses the evidence in the scripture and throughout history to prove God’s existence.  These evidences include miracles and prophecy fulfillment.  It also uses human reason.  Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel use this method. 

Appealing to the darkened intellect of the unbeliever is the wrong way to reach him. 

The goal of pre-suppositional apologetics is to close the mouth of the unbeliever.  It isn’t designed to convert the soul.  Gene says apologetics isn’t designed to convert the soul. 

The Defensive Aspect 

If pre-suppositional apologetics is the most biblical method, then it will be the most effective.

In the Garden of Eden, the serpent adds to the Word of God.  He tells Eve that God said she could not touch the fruit, but God only said she could not eat it.  This is the first recorded attack on God’s Word. 

Eve assumed her own autonomy and sinned. 

The scriptures say we should not answer a fool according to his folly.  This may mean that we should not appeal to an unbeliever’s reason. 

You cannot start by ignoring the Word of God if you hope to prove it. 

The Word of God is the highest authority in the world. 

All Christians assume beforehand the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the authority of the scriptures, but we don’t always confirm this in our apologetics. 

It’s pointless to appeal to man’s reason because it has been corrupted by sin. 

The Bible tells us that fools will suppress the truth. 

There is no evidence that will suffice for the unbeliever. 

We all assume things at face value. 

Not all beliefs are justified. 

Unbelievers believe all kinds of things without justification. 

Why should we cater to an unbeliever’s pre-supposition? 

The Offensive Aspect 

The Christian worldview is the only worldview that tells us why evil exists, how we got here, why we’re here, and where we’re going. 

If an atheist has a question, then we should answer it from the scripture. 

Make the atheist see how his worldview doesn’t line up with reality. 

Atheists most commonly pre-suppose human reason.  They can’t tell you where it came from or why it’s here, but they rely on it. 

MUCH (Morals, Uniformity of Nature, Concepts that are Universal, Human Dignity) 

Morals 

What is your standard of morality?  Everyone has a sense of morality, but since we are fallen, morality varies.  No atheist can justify his moral standard.  The atheist cannot say why things such as lying are wrong. 

a)     “Whatever society says is good.” (e.g. social approval) – Nazi Germany defies this answer.  This precludes someone from speaking against social wrongs. 

b)     “Each person must decide for himself what is right or wrong.” (e.g. individual approval) – A person deciding to murder defies this answer.  Deciding something is right doesn’t make it right. 

c)     “Good is what achieves certain ends.” (e.g. ) – Who determines what is good?  The word “good” doesn’t have any meaning apart from the Bible.  If we’re all just bags of water, then “good” or “evil” are descriptive terms.  In a materialistic world, all we can do is observe what has already been done. 

Our weapon is the Word of God and it is in the Word of God that we find our objective moral standard. 

Uniformity of Nature 

How is the scientific method even possible if everything is in a constant state of change?  Scientific laws can only tell us about today and yesterday, but they cannot tell us about the future.  There is no predictability and they cannot apply these laws to the future. 

If the unbeliever is looking into the past to assume the present, then he is thinking like a Christian. 

The atheist takes it for granted that his morals are right and that things will be continue as they have been. 

Concepts that are Universal 

The number 2 is not a physical entity.  It is a concept. 

We assume that the number 3, the color blue, and personhood are real. 

When an unbeliever asks for evidence, he is assuming that he can effectively use the laws of logic to understand the evidence. 

Where is the law of non-contradiction? 

God is the first rational being.  He has given us the ability to reason because He is a logical being.  Since we were made in his image, we have been given the ability to reason. 

Why should the unbeliever be allowed to use logic?  The unbeliever should prove that logic exists. 

Logic becomes the God of the unbeliever.  It has to be eternal and universal, in order to be. 

The pre-suppositional believer assumes that God’s Word is true while the unbeliever assumes logic is true. 

Human Dignity

Why do most atheists who believe in evolution are not vegetarians?  If they believe that we are all related animals, then why would they eat their “brother” (a cow, for instance)? 

When the atheist understands that his logic is bankrupt, he’ll realize that not only his intellect needs to be saved, but also his soul. 

Gabe Colangelo

The Christian Worldview: What is needed in the Church? 

A worldview is only as good as it is acted out. 

What comes to mind when we think about God is the most important thing about us. – A.W. Tozer 

Many of us have stopped thinking as Christians should be thinking. 

Some of us believe the right things, but don’t act on them. 

A worldview is a conceptual framework that gives the world meaning. 

Facts don’t speak for themselves.  Facts need interpreting. 

If the resurrection is true, then what does it mean? 

There are three major, general worldviews: Theism, Atheism, and Modism. 

Deism says God is the Creator, but He has left things go and let the world continue by itself (like an absentee landlord). 

Polytheism says there are many gods.  Many people are polytheists without realizing it. 

Monotheism says there is one true God. 

Today, Jesus is everybody’s homeboy, but not everybody’s God. 

Many Christians do not have strong and clear beliefs, largely because they do not possess a coherent biblical worldview. 

Some people go to church and think they’re receiving the Word of God, but they’re only receiving a positive message. 

Americans revere the Bible, but by and large, they don’t read it.  Because they don’t read it, they have become a nation of biblical illiterates. 

Some people say God is a top priority, but He really isn’t. 

Everything in the Bible is true, but some truths need to be mined from the Bible, so we can apply them to today’s issues. 

Man’s chief end is to glorify and enjoy God forever. 

Mike Sarkissian

Jehovah's Witnesses: Ministers of a False Gospel and in Need of Evangelization 

The JWs came from the Campbellite movement. 

J. Thomas split and started the Christadelphians. 

B. Wilson published The Emphatic Diaglott.  He introduced his teachings to C.T. Russell.  Russell founded the Watchtower Magazine. 

The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ name came under their 2^nd President. 

The Watchtower dictates what they believe. 

The Watchtower magazine says their prophecies should be judged and weighed, to see if they are from God or not.  However, a 1964 copy of the Watchtower mentioned some of their prophecies that failed. 

According to Russell, 1874 was the beginning of Christ’s invisible presence.  He said the Battle of Armageddon was going to end in 1914.  This date has subsequently been pushed back. 

Russell was involved in Pyramidology and divination.  He believed that the pyramids were inspired on the same level of the Bible.  The Watchtower called it “God’s stone witness and prophet . . . the same divine inspirer of the prophets and the apostles inspired this “Witness” also.” 

Russell’s successor (Rutherford) claimed that God would destroy the churches by millions in 1918. 

In 1928, they denounced the pyramid and said those who were devoted to the pyramid had turned away from Jehovah. 

They claimed that 1935 was the last chance to be in the anointed class.  They said Armageddon would occur in 1975. 

The JWs have changed their mind 5 times that the Men of Sodom would be resurrected.  They said the Book of Ruth was non prophetic in 1902, then it was in 1932. 

In 1943, the JWs said, “Man cannot by airplane of rockets or other means get above the air envelope which is about our earthly globe . . .” 

In the 1950’s, the President of the JWs was under oath and in court when he was asked who translated the New World Translation.  However, he said that he would never tell. 

The original New World Translation did not change or have issue with John 1:1 or Revelation 3:14.  However, subsequent translations did. 

In 1971, the Jehovah’s Witnesses changed the Greek word “proskuneo” from worship, when it related to Jesus Christ as the object of worship.  See Philippians 2 and Isaiah 45:23. 

The New World Translation is full or errors designed to deceive. 

The JW’s Aid to Bible Understanding, pages 1060-1061, give them permission to lie to people “who are not entitled to it (the truth).” 

People who deny the trinity point toward the scriptures that emphasize Jesus’ humanity, but they deny or reject the scriptures that emphasize His deity. 

JWs reject the trinity.  See their book called, “Should You Believe in the Trinity?” 

JWs abhor the thought of worshiping Jesus. 

In July 15, 1898, on page 216, The Watchtower said it was acceptable to worship Jesus.  It was an emphatic and detailed statement. 

Not one reputable Greek scholar (Christian and non-Christian alike) will endorse the JW’s translation of John 1:1.  They say it says, “the Word was a god” instead of “the Word was God.”  This exposes their theological bias and an inconsistency with their logic. 

Steve Wilson

Saved Out of the Roman Catholic Church 

Steve gave his testimony, which included his childhood, his experience with the Catholic Church, and his departure from it. 

There is a sense of pride among Catholics, evidenced by their attitude while crossing themselves and touching the “holy water.” 

Either the Bible is right and Catholicism is wrong or Catholicism is right and the Bible is wrong.

False doctrine leads you to Hell, but true doctrine saves you.

If you won’t talk about doctrine because you think doctrine divides, then you might as well say you won’t talk about Christianity or Jesus because they both divide.

Learn Catholic doctrines, so you can expose them.

Joel Hughes

Secular Humanism: The Cancer Killing America

Secular humanism is an ideological disease.  It’s a malignant cancer that seeks to exterminate other belief systems, especially Christianity.

Secular humanism has no established founder.  It is a zeitgeist.

Secular humanists believe that man is the most important being and the central focus of life.  They want to be God. 

They believe that the supernatural is irrelevant. 

The “ism” on the word “humanism” or “secularism” designates a world view. 

Secularism is the dominant ism in America, today. 

Secular humanism implies atheism and doesn’t see any need for God. 

There are two main types of secular humanists: the academic elite and the unconscious humanist. 

The ACLU is a secular humanist group that seeks to eliminate Christianity. 

Today, television is one of the most popular tools of indoctrination for the secular humanists.  Television is the most consuming leisure activity in history. 

Television doesn’t just rewrite history, but it writes history for the first time, in a powerful way, in people’s minds. 

Most people in our culture pick up their beliefs like a dog picks up fleas. 

Some believe we live in a post-Christian culture that is changing into an anti-Christian culture.  The shift from being a Christian culture into being a post-Christian culture happened in the 1920’s. 

The Renaissance started good, but turned into the Enlightenment period (which was the apex of secular humanism). 

The Reformation sought to bring people back to a God-centered reality. 

The Protestants came to America for religious freedom and the secular humanists came here for economic prosperity.  The Christians founded the country’s first educational systems and designed America’s legal framework. 

Darwinian evolution undermined the idea of divine creation and pitted the Bible in the category of myth as opposed to science. 

The church responded by turning inward and telling churchgoers that they needed to cultivate their Christian growth in private. 

Many Christians abandoned the culture forming jobs (like teachers, judges, lawyers, and doctors) and non-Christians filled the vacuum. 

Between 1925 and 1975, Christians allowed secular humanism to take over.  They left things like feeding the poor to the State. 

Ideas do not sit still and do nothing.  False ideas have negative consequences. 

Here are some things we can expect from secular humanism

1)     The death of God (not in reality, but in relevance).

2)     The death of the soul (all supernatural and invisible realities are lost, a sensual based outlook, focusing on the visible to the detriment of the invisible)

3)     The death of morality (moral relativism)

4)     The death of meaning

5)     The death of religious freedom

6)     The death of democratic freedom

7)     The death of human dignity

8)     The death of marriage and family

9)     The death of the church 

Most Christians don’t know the intellectual greats of Christianity, but they know the “rock stars” of Christianity. 

The more we lose track of the ultimate source of morality, the more we move toward being a nation like the Roman Empire. 

Many people, both young and old, do not know or consider the meaning of life.  They rather watch television than think about it. 

Secular humanists claim to be tolerant, but are not tolerant of those who disagree with them.  They seek the complete sterilization of God from the public eye.  They are actually secular fundamentalists and seek to indoctrinate others. 

Social liberalism is the ugly child of secular humanism. 

When a country loses God as its center, it inevitably must look inside itself for direction and provision.  The government becomes God and the State is worshipped. 

Secularism wants to reduce us all to animals who evolved from inanimate manner. 

The Christian worldview says that humans have great value because of our Creator. 

Abortion is a pagan practice used by a number of cultures around the world for hundreds of years. 

Abortion is nothing more than the ruthless and cold-hearted murder of a baby. 

Some of the European countries who are more advanced in their pursuit of secular humanism are already past abortion and on to euthanizing the elderly and handicapped. 

Examples of secular humanism in the church today: natural theology, an autonomous free will, relative morality, seeker-friendly churches/emergent church. 

An unbeliever has no ability to project an objective moral standard. 

When Christians turn to the world for moral guidance, you know we’re in trouble. 

Our greatest threat to the church is not evolution or Islam, but it is ourselves.  Secular humanism that has infected believers can bring down the church.  Beware of the secularization of the church. 

What we can you do about it? 

1)     Realize how we’re in a very real war with eternal consequences.  We cannot afford to be passive.

2)     Do not retreat!  Separation is biblical, but isolation is not.  Monks isolated in a monastery are not biblical.  Be informed on political issues.  Develop a strong apologetic.  Speak up in the workplace.  Tell them the truth.  Be diligent in prayer.  Enter the various professions that can influence and form the culture.  We need Christian leaders, so we can get back in the driver’s seat.

3)     Cultivate an eternal perspective.

4)     Learn about worldviews. 

Christianity transcends America and all other nations and cultures.

Don’t fall for the false dichotomy that religion is personal and up in the clouds while science and reason are grounded in truth.  These false dichotomies include nature and grace, faith and reason, sacred and secular, heart and head, religion and science. 

There is no realm of secularism that is free from God’s control. 

If there is no cultural revolution, America as we know it will die. 

Ed Enochs

Why the Mormon Church is a Cult 

Mitt Romney, a 2008 presidential candidate who has earned over $240 million dollars through his business ventures, is a 5^th generation Mormon.  He was a big leader of the Mormon church and went on an extensive Mormon missions trip to Europe. 

Mormons want Romney to become president, so he can influence the country and the world with Mormonism.  If he gets elected, Mormonism will grow quicker than it otherwise would. 

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 warns against false signs, wonders, and gods. 

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 warns us about false teachers. 

All around us, we see people trying to silence the church and Christians. 

When is the last time you heard the name of Jesus or God glorified on television? 

Much of America cares more about Brad Pitt, Britney Spears, and Paris Hilton more than the Word of God. 

We must guard ourselves against false doctrines and false teachers. 

A cult will do one of three things: deny the trinity, deny salvation by grace, deny the sufficiency of God’s Word. 

Know how to defend the doctrine of the trinity. 

The cults are doing the work of the Devil. 

BYU is the facilitator of one of the biggest cults in the world. 

They teach 90 different languages at BYU, so their missionaries can spread their false doctrines to the world. 

In 1830, when Joseph Smith was looking for the right denomination to join, he says he met the physical body of God who told him to join none of those churches and to start his own. 

Smith claims that an angel named Moroni came to him and told him where gold plates with the Book of Mormon on it were located. 

The Mormon Church as hundreds of billions of dollars and want desperately to be accepted by American as a mainstream religion.  However, even Catholics reject Mormonism because of their view of the nature and existence of God and their false view of salvation. 

Mormonism teaches the doctrine of eternal progression.  They believe people can become gods. 

Learn the Mormon doctrines, so you can reach them for Christ. 

Emilio Ramos

The Errors of Islam

Pre-Islamic Times

Mecca was the focus of life in ancient Arabia.  This is modern Saudi Arabia.  It was polytheistic (over 360 deities) and pluralistic. 

There was also animism and superstition (e.g. Jinn, omens, demonology). 

We get today’s concept of the Genie from the pre-Islamic Jinn. 

Life of Muhammad (570 – 632 A.D.) 

He was born of the Quaryish Tribe.

There were supposedly angels present at his birth. 

Legend says that when Muhammad was born, he picked up a fistful of dust, threw it and said, “Allah is great!” 

Legend says that Muhammad cut his own umbilical cord and that he created real doves from clay doves (as a similar story reads about Jesus in the Gnostic Gospels).

In 612 A.D., Muhammad receives his first revelation at Mt. Hira.  Gabriel supposedly came to him.  He could not read and wasn’t sure if he was a prophet or not, so he went to others to get confirmation. 

A Nestorian Monk said he was a prophet.  One of his wives named Khadija tested him and said he was a prophet. 

Muhammad’s illiteracy was in Surah 7.157.  Muslims say his illiteracy was proof of his divinity, as he wrote much, somehow.

“Seal of the Prophets” – Surah 33.40

In 622 A.D., Hijrah ("Flight” happened when Muhammad met his followers on the way to Mecca from Medina. 

Islam begins to dominate and caravan raiders begin attacking. 

The Jizyah tax was applied to Christians and Jews for not being a Muslim.  Pagans could only accept Islam or die. 

The word Quran means “to recite” or “read” and the idea came from Muhammad allegedly being told by Jibril to “recite.” 

The Quran today is made up of 114 Surahs (like chapters). 

Things such as bark, stone, scraps of paper, bones, and palm leaves were used to write down the supposed revelations from God to Muhammad.  However, the writing material available at that time was velum, papyri, and paper. 

Some say that Muhammad was epileptic.  He may have had epileptic seizures, then said things that were written on strange things. 

Muslims believe that the Quran is the ultimate revelation of Allah to man. 

The Quran is the ultimate authority for belief and practice. 

The Hadith is a compilation of traditions of what Muhammad allegedly said and did.  Sahih al-Buhari and Sahih Muslim wrote some Hadiths that are widely accepted by Muslims. 

The Quran doesn’t give any personal information about Muhammad (age, skin color, etc.) and Muslim doctrines.  We must look to the Hadiths for these things. 

The word “Muslim” means “one who submits.” 

Islam is a strict monotheism and rejects the trinity and the deity of Christ. 

There are five pillars of Islam.  They include: 

1)     No other God but Allah (shahadah)

2)     Prayer (salat)

3)     Fasting (sawm)

4)     The giving of Alms (zakat)

5)     Pilgrimage to Mecca (hajj)

6)     Jihad (some Muslims view Jihad as the sixth pillar) 

Jihad means holy war. 

Islam claims to be an extension of Christian scriptures and part of the original revelation of God.  It seeks to restore what they say has been lost with the Jews and the Christians. 

Injil means gospels. 

Islam shoots itself in the foot, as it claims to be an extension of Christianity, yet Christianity has historical precedence and there are irreconcilable differences. 

As a believer, we are never to relinquish our assertion that the Christian Scriptures, composed of Old and New Testaments, are reliable and relevant to arguing for the defense of Christianity. 

God did not preserve His Word for us to surrender it in an act of pretended neutrality. 

It is a shame for Christians not to know their own book. – Martin Luther 

There are several reasons to reject Muhammad as a prophet. 

Muslims claim that Muhammad was prophesied in the Old Testament (like in Deuteronomy 18:15).  However, this reference to “Brethren” is clearly referring to an Israelite. 

It is a fallacious use of logic to say that one can use a source (the Bible) he has renounced.  Is the Bible only reliable when Muslims use it? 

There is no observable evidence of Muhammad’s prophetic ministry.  The word “periclytos” is not mentioned in the scriptures.  In fact, one of the Surahs says his prophetic ministry wasn’t necessary because the people wouldn’t believe and act. 

Muhammad was a polygamist.  Most say he had at least 13 wives.  Supposedly, Muhammad was given a personal revelation from God that he could have as many wives as he wanted, opposed to the maximum amount for other Muslims (which was 4). 

Widows, divorced women, as well as slaves were found in Muhammad’s harem. 

Most sources say that one of his wives named Aisha married him when he was 6 (or 7) years old and had sexual intercourse with him when she was 9.  One source says she was playing with her dolls when Muhammad took her as her wife. 

The Bible contrasts this in Ephesians 5:22-23.  It is monogamous, no marriage of children, mutual respect and love, a picture of God’s love for the church. 

Muhammad claims that his revelation (tanzil) was simply handed over to him, yet it existed eternally in the heavens (Surah 12.2).  Surah 12.2 says it was written in pure Arabic. 

We see words like Pharaoh, Adam, Eden, Abraham, and Injil that are not Arabic words.  In fact, there are over 100 words in the Quran that aren’t pure Arabic. 

In light of the evidence, Muhammad had a questionable calling, was a deplorable example, and made fraudulent claims. 

Reasons for rejecting the Quran: external and internal evidence. 

The composition of the Quran is extremely chaotic.  It’s almost impossible to understand how it came together.  Various codices contradicted each other.  There are missing verses and contradictions between the Quran and the Hadiths. 

Turmoil still exists in the Islamic culture, today.  For instance, adultery is punished by death by stoning or with 100 lashes, depending on which text you choose to favor. 

There are scientific contradictions in the Quran.  For instance, it says the Sun exists in a spring of murky water (Surah 18.86). 

There are historical contradictions in the Quran.  The sister of Aaron was not Mary, but Miriam.

See Surahs 19.28, 66.12, and 20.25-30.  This was an error of about 1500+ years, confusing this woman with another. 

In Surah 20.85-87, we find the golden calf of the Israelites being made by a Samaritan, but the word Samaritan wasn’t penned until much later (and this contradicts the scriptures, anyway). 

Surah 5.116 says the trinity consists of the Father, the Mother (Mary), and the Son (Jesus). 

Heaven isn’t Heaven unless God is there. 

There is no assurance of salvation in Islam.  God is unknowable. 

The message of Islam is emphatically inhumane and doesn’t tolerate civil rights. 

According to Muslim tradition, women are inferior to men on many levels. 

When Muhammad looked into Hell, he saw many more women than men. 

Muslims have the right to beat their wives.  Women are likened unto donkeys and dogs.  Women are property. 

Today in Iran, women are able to be punished at 9 years old, but a man at 15.  If a 9 year old girl and a 14 year old boy are caught stealing, the boy goes free, but the girl may lose 4 fingers.

In Kuwait, women are not allowed to vote.

In Morocco, only half of the men are in favor of equal rights among men and women.

Wife beating is virtually unaddressed in Muslim nations because in most Muslim countries a woman’s testimony is only half of that of a man’s.

Islam is a diabolical religion. 

Islam is manifestly incompatible with a biblical worldview.  It contains a false prophet, false book, and false worldview. 

Debate: Eternal Punishment

Does the Bible Teach the Existence of Hell? 

This was a 3 on 3 debate.  Gene Cook, Jr., Mike Sarkissian, and Joel Hughes argued for the existence of Hell and Dan Mages, Patrick Navas, and Steve Scianni argued against the existence of Hell and for the concept of annihilation.  Jason Robertson was the moderator.

Gene Cook, Jr.: 15 Minute Opening Statement 

Mark 9:47, 48 affirms the existence of Hell.  It also affirms the eternality of Hell. 

“The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.” – Revelation 14:11

Matthew 25:46 affirms eternal fire and eternal punishment. 

Revelation 20:10  “The will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.” 

Steve Scianni is an atheist, teaming up with Patrick and Dan, who reject the deity of Christ (e.g. the trinity) and the existence of Hell. 

If you don’t have eternal punishment, then you don’t have eternal life. 

The natural man wants to sit in judgment of the scriptures and he wants to take away anything he finds offensive about God.  It is these people that will deny Hell because they want to change the character and will of God. 

I’ve never met a guilty criminal who believes the punishment he received was fair.  How do we, as sinners by nature, declare that eternal punishment is unfair? 

We come to the scriptures, humbly believing what the Bible says; whether it be hard or soothing on the ears. 

If there is no Hell and suffering, then why did Jesus have to suffer?  Jesus suffered so we would not have to suffer in Hell. 

The scriptures say that Jesus Christ saves sinners.  What does He save sinners from?  Does He save us from a nice grave plot?  Does He save us from going out like a lamp in the night?  No.  He saves us from His Father’s judgment and eternal punishment. 

God is a God of justice. 

Luke 16 affirms the existence of torment for sinners after death. 

If the Devil could only convince us of just two things, what would they be?  Answer: That Jesus is not the Christ and that Hell does not exist. 

Steve Scianni: 15 Minute Opening Statement 

1)     The biblical warrant for eternal punishment is missing.  The Bible doesn’t teach eternal torment.  It isn’t a clear and common theme from beginning to end. 

Adam wasn’t warned of it.  It was never mentioned as a consequence for sin.  Jude, James, John, and Peter don’t mention it.  The word Hell doesn’t appear in any of Paul’s writings. 

Every prophet, poet, and historian omitted Hell.  They omitted it because they didn’t believe it and didn’t teach it. 

There are no statements that sinners will be immortal. 

Genesis 3:19 says Adam will return to dust. 

The concept of the immortality of the soul is foreign to the Bible. 

1 Corinthians 15 says that immortality happens because of the resurrection and it’s a reward from God for belief in Christ. 

2)     The biblical vision for eternity.  God is going to destroy evil, restore everything, and live where only righteousness exists. 

Final punishment is the theme from Genesis to Revelation. 

Psalm 37:38 says transgressors will be destroyed. 

Isaiah 1:28, Ezekiel 18:4, Nahum 1:2-13, Zephaniah 1, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 3:10, Matthew 13:40, and John 15:6 were used to argue for the annihilation of the wicked. 

Why didn’t Jesus say “forever” when He said unbelievers would be tormented in Gehenna? 

Death, dying, destruction, and perishing are continually mentioned for the price for sin. 

Romans 6:23, Romans 9:22, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3, Philippians 3:19, 1 Thessalonians 5:3, 1 Thessalonians 10:37, and 12:29, and 2 Peter 3:7, 9, and 10 were also used to argue for annihilation and against Hell. 

There cannot be a consuming fire and eternal punishment. 

40 Minute Dialogue 

The scriptures say that unbelievers are spiritually discerned and cannot understand the truths in the Bible.  How can we expect Steve to understand the doctrine of eternal punishment? 

According to Dan, there will be different levels of punishment, but he doesn’t know what they are.  Hitler will have a worse punishment than a Catholic.  According to Steve, the duration of torment will differ (yet won’t be eternal) and believers in Hell think the amount of punishment will differ (yet will be eternal). 

Dan mentions Edom and how the scriptures say it will burn and smoke will rise forever and ever (olam?), but this isn’t happening.  He says this means that all references to “forever and ever” may be symbolic and not literal. 

Joel Hughes: Closing Statement 

On Starbuck’s cup #250, it denies the existence of Hell.  Every heretic and cultic group denies the existence of an eternal Hell because they rely on an authority besides the Bible. 

All cults camp out in the Old Testament and use it over the New Testament to justify their heretical beliefs. 

Their viewpoint on eternal punishment would be far more credible if they only varied from the traditional truth of the Word of God on this one point, but they vary in numerous other points, too. 

Dan Mages: Closing Statement 

What happens when a person is cast into a consuming fire?  They are consumed. 

The Bible mentioned eternal redemption in Hebrews 9:12.  Are we to believe that He will redeem us forever? 

In Mark 3:29, we see eternal sin.  Sin isn’t going on and on, but it’s a sin with everlasting effects. 

Our opponents poisoned the well and didn’t use the Old Testament all night. 

Eternal torment is not just or biblical. 

What crime deserves eternal conscious torment? 

We would assume that if eternal conscious torment were in the Bible that it would be everywhere in the Bible. 

Progressive revelation gives you more understanding, but doesn’t contradict a previously given principle. 

My Notes/Comments: 

The opposite of eternal life isn’t death.  It’s eternal punishment. 

Steve question bombed in his opening statement by quoting an inordinate amount of scriptures to try and prove his case (and most, if not all, didn’t even apply). 

Steve said John didn’t mention eternal punishment, but he did in Revelation. 

Joel mentioned three New Testament passages of scripture that talk about eternal punishment, but Steve only addressed the (possible) parable about Hades and Lazarus.  What about the other two? 

Later, Steve said that one of the passages in Revelation that seems to refer to eternal punishment could refer to only earthly punishment.  All of the verses that Steve quoted also refer to simply earthly punishment. 

Questions and Answers 

For Steve: Did John write Revelation?  You said John didn’t mention eternal suffering, but he did in Revelation (e.g. 20:10). 

For Dan: If Mark 3:29 refers to a sin with everlasting effects, as you said, then doesn’t that go to show that there is eternal punishment?